IDF soldiers describe killing civilians

[mindstalk]

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Comments

[jordan179.livejournal.com]

Wow ... some Israeli soldiers have deliberately killed civilians, while Hamas has a policy of deliberately killing civilians. Clearly, Israel is just as bad as Hamas. Of course, by this logic, every army is just as bad as every army, and all judgement falls into a singularity of "no-better-no-worse-than."

Which is all to the benefit of the Powers (both present and historical) who are or were in reality the most atrocious.

[mindstalk.livejournal.com]

You're projecting. Did I say anything about Hamas? Did they? The question is not whether the IDF is better than Hamas. The question is whether the IDF is as good as it should be, or whether the IDF has a de facto policy of killing civilians, or not caring if they get killed, despite official but allegedly slow investigations.

The sins of others do not make it okay to sin oneself, though occasionally it may be necessary. Killing civilians is a dubious road to peace. And hey, the rockets are still falling on Sderot. Which is Hamas's sin, but also means the Israeli incursion can't claim the justification of having worked.

[jordan179.livejournal.com]

The question is not whether the IDF is better than Hamas. The question is whether the IDF is as good as it should be, or whether the IDF has a de facto policy of killing civilians, or not caring if they get killed, despite official but allegedly slow investigations.

There is no sizable army in the world which would pass that test. Every army which has ever conducted real campaigns will have some individuals who will commit atrocities, and even some individuals who will order them committed. The focus on the IDF, in a world where there are so many worse armies, is motivated by anti-Semitism and anti-Westernism, pure and simple.

[mindstalk.livejournal.com]

You calling me an anti-Semite, Jordan?

"Anti-Westernism", that's a new term. And no, it's not anti-Westernism, it's wanting to keep Western countries up to Western standards.

As no army passing the test -- well, that's a good reason for not using militaries unless one really has to. But we keep our militaries honest by criticism. Are you saying this shouldn't have been reported? That I shouldn't have passed it on?

[jordan179.livejournal.com]

As no army passing the test -- well, that's a good reason for not using militaries unless one really has to. But we keep our militaries honest by criticism. Are you saying this shouldn't have been reported? That I shouldn't have passed it on?

I'm saying that it's interesting that you focus so strongly on the occasional atrocities committed by Western militaries, especially the Israelis, while utterly ignoring the routine atrocities committed by non-Western militaries. I'm also saying that, when you ignore the issue of frequency and degree, you are not keeping any militaries "honest," because the extent of your focus on any particular military is entirely independent of its conduct.

[jordan179.livejournal.com]

You calling me an anti-Semite, Jordan?

Whether you are actually an anti-Semite or not, you are definitely pursuing an anti-Semitic agenda, in spotlighting everything Israel does wrong -- and nothing that any Arab Power or organization do wrong.

[mindstalk.livejournal.com]

Or I'm a Jew who calls his own people to account first, as my mother raised me to do. Throwing around the "anti-Semitic" moniker just makes you look silly.

[mindstalk.livejournal.com]

1) I am not a "fair and balanced" news digest service. I'm a journaler who posts whatever strikes my fancy or gets my attention. The agenda is "ooh! shiny!" and "eww".

2) You are, in fact, wrong. I linked to Hamas's torture and murders last month (http://mindstalk.livejournal.com/182544.html). And if I were to spotlight everything Israel does wrong I'd be saying *far* more about it -- posting every time a home gets destroyed or kids get killed.

And, in the past 9 months in news:tagged posts, I've posted a few things about Israel, a few scattered things on Muslims good and bad, and that's about it. 15 months... I posted about Jews getting attacked in NYC, or for complaining about Christmas. 18 months, on British Creationism and Muslims being partially blamed. 21 months, a Pakistani saying Rushdie's knighthood justified suicide attacks. With stuff about Israel not even appearing in the intervals.

As for Arab Powers, their activities... mostly don't even show up for me. Blame AP and Reuters if you want, or Yahoo's selection from their feeds.

3) Even an actual bias against Israel may just be anti-Israel, not anti-Semitic. "Anti-Semitic agenda" is scare talk.

[jordan179.livejournal.com]

Killing civilians is a dubious road to peace.

What, criticizing Hamas now? Oh no, wait, you're talking about the isolated incidents of Israelis killing civilians, rather than the Hamas policy of killing civilians. For a moment I forgot that The Jews Are Always To Blame.

And hey, the rockets are still falling on Sderot. Which is Hamas's sin, but also means the Israeli incursion can't claim the justification of having worked.

Of course the Israeli incursion "worked," to the best that a raid could possibly work. Which is to say, it destroyed a lot of Hamas' fighting strength, and reduced the intensity of the bombardments.

Given the Hamas refusal to give up attacking Israel, only an occupation and regime change would stop the bombardments. As I said at the time, when you were claiming that this would have been an unreasonably extreme Israeli policy.

[mindstalk.livejournal.com]

Hey, I criticized Hamas. You even quoted me doing it. Guess you couldn't resist the cheap and false shot.