Torture, gay marriage

[mindstalk]

Torture
* Pressure mounts to investigate and prosecute Bush admin torture. McCain disagrees: "Look, in banana republics they prosecute people for actions they didn't agree with under previous administrations. To go back on a witch hunt that could last for a year or so, frankly, is going to be bad for the country, bad for future presidents," McCain said on CBS Right, because prosecution for illegal torture is politicising things.
* FBI agent speaks out about torture and it's ineffectiveness. Says the FBI refused to torture, creating a wall between the CIA and FBI, inhibiting cooperation on terror investigation. Also claims that it was contractors more than long-term CIA officials pushing for torture. (Plus, of course, Attorney General Alberto Gonzales.)

Gay marriage
* 53% of New Yorkers polled support gay marriage
* New Jersey, too 49-43.
* Connecticut's governor signed a gay marriage bill, putting into law what the supreme court had decreed.

Misc
* Rise in housecalls. Article also mentions that they save the system money -- but the particular hospital loses ER fees. Reminds me of Krugman's point about how the US system inhibits preventive care. Insurance company paying for prevention now may save money for some other insurance company or Medicare, so why do it?
* Geocities closing. If there's content you want, go download it.

Comments

[mlc23.livejournal.com]

The "torture camp" in question is SERE school which basically teaches military how to be prisoners of war. It's fairly secretive, but there are a lot of articles about it if you want to google.

That said, I'm not sure that undergoing waterboarding or other "torture" in a controlled training environment where you know there are limits is exactly the same as having it done to you as an enemy/POW. My husband went through SERE and although I don't know the details, we've had this sort of philosophical discussion about it.

Like you I have no idea how many regular soldiers were involved. Mostly what I've heard about is the CIA program and it was, in fact, very controlled. Unlike most liberals, I believe torture can work, and is maybe, possibly, ok to use in an extremely limited number of circumstances (with a bazillion caveats).

Military personnel have a legal and moral obligation to refuse unlawful orders. Period. But... in reality not everything falls into clear cut categories, not every service member is educated enough to know where the boundaries are, and yeah, the person giving the orders is probably more culpable. However, I don't think absurd and evil (as mentioned below) is a good enough standard by a long shot. For example - being ordered to steal equipment, fake gear accounting statements, etc. can probably be "justified" under the right circumstances and are not really evil in the sense that murder and rape are evil, but I would expect anyone following such an illegal order to be duly punished (along with the person giving the order).

[mindstalk.livejournal.com]

not sure... is exactly the same

Especially if the interrogators go beyond the guidelines that students would stay within.

very controlled

Not sure what you mean by that.

I can see the logic of "torture to make them talk, check what they say thoroughly". One thought is about the ease of controlling the sort of people who'd volunteer for torture work, or the effects of doing it on non-sadists drafted into it.

A bigger thought is that the initial premise assumes the victim actually knows something. But if they don't, you end up keeping on torturing them, going through the stuff they make up, waiting for the true information they don't have to give.

[mlc23.livejournal.com]

I just mean it sounds like it was well thought out and not some sort of sadistic free-for-all. I found this NY Times article quite interesting:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/22/washington/22ksm.html?ex=1371873600&en=ebb954dc91ad910e&ei=5124&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink

[mindstalk.livejournal.com]

Sounds like it was a mix. "ad hoc", "cobbled together", "little research or reflection"... along with approval of each step, having a medic on hand, etc.