India vs. China

[mindstalk]

So, about that sparking claim that people study India or China but not both, which is from just one guy and might be BS for all I know, but anyway: I was thinking that people who visit India might fall in love with it, but if you do some superficial reading about the two, China may seem more attractive to learn about.

Distinctive social features: both are undemocratic autocracies, but what comes to mind about them? China: the civil service examinations. Charmingly meritocratic, and if you're the sort to read lots of history, you can imagine you'd do well in them; I can totally see myself as a magistrate by now, with a couple of concubines in the garden. India's feature... the caste system, where people care what you're born to, not what your talents and intelligence are, and with a whole lot of robust racism. Which do you want to learn more about, or write an RPG about? (A fair number of Chinese or pseudo-Chinese or influenced RPGs exist: Exalted, Weapons of the Gods, Qin, Oriental Adventures, probably more; there's some Indian influence in Exalted, but not so definitive, and no other RPGs.) One is a feature we could envision importing to our own society, or even already have, the other is a feature even native reformers want to burn to the ground.

Inventions: China has paper, the compass, gunpowder, Go, and lots of other things. India has zero and chess. Advantage China, especially with gunpowder. Boom! Though I wonder who first tamed war-elephants. Those are cool too, but I think less mentally prominent.

(Note that all this doesn't have to be entirely accurate, just the perceptions one quickly picks up. Also, it may seem like offensive generalizations, but that's exactly what might underlie gut decisions to study one thing over another.)

Religion: China is charmingly exotic yet seemingly understandable, with a Celestial Bureaucracy of distinct gods, plus some ancestor worship (and burning paper money for the dead!) And people think they get Daoism and Buddhism, kind of. Hinduism just seems more confusing, and so far more so the more I learn. And the core afterlife concept is karma + reincarnation, which provokes "this is totally unfair" and "why should I care?" in a lot of people. My fate depends on a bunch of stuff someone else did with my soul that I don't remember? Gee, thanks. My actions determine a future life conscious-me will never experience? Whoop. Give me my paper money.

Spirituality: the highest achievement of native Chinese mysticism is to become immortal as an individual, elixir of life and all. The highest achievement of Indian mysticism is to stop being an individual, merging with Godhead.

Women: neither looks good here, but it's foot-binding vs. widow-burning.

Prestige: China was the Middle Kingdom, influencing all of East Asia. India seems un-unified and passive. Buddhism, that most hip of non-European religions in Western eyes, did influence Asia but got rejected by India itself; doesn't speak well for India.

ETA:
Pop culture: China has wuxia and Hong Kong flicks and martial arts. India has nothing similar that's hit the Western consciousness. Wording chosen deliberately because India *does* have Bollywood, and the Ramayana, and reportedly lots of cinematically amazing stuff that would make the Iliad seem like a bunch of ignorant barbarians scrabbling in the dust. The flashy "anime" Charms in Exalted allegedly owe more to what gods and heroes were doing in the Ramayana than to anime. OTOH, the fact that almost everyone ascribes them to anime rather than the Ramayana says something about relative awareness.


Feel free to rant and tear this to shreds. :)

Comments

[heron61.livejournal.com]

there's some Indian influence in Exalted, but not so definitive, and no other RPGs.

Actually, India has one of the oldest RPGs patterned on it - EPT. Barker is a professor of South Asian languages, and Tekumel is a mixture of science-fantasy India & a bit of science fantasy S.E. Asia.

That said, China and Japan both have inspired considerably more RPGs (including a number of dubious ones that mash China and Japan together).

[mindstalk.livejournal.com]

EPT = Empire of the Petal Throne, for the laymen. And right, thanks, that was totally off my recall radar.

As it happens, there was that thread recently about "You too can play Tekumel!", and the little I was able to infer about the society made it sound like the sort you'd send a high-Compassion Solar Exalt in to burn to the ground. :) People saying "why yes, it is somewhat rigid and alien". So I think you've supported my point...

[heron61.livejournal.com]

Except that in all of the material written about Tekumel, it is clearly depicted as an alien world and an alien society, but not as a horrific one (except in the ways that all pre-modern societies were horrific), heck, it even included an option for women to choose not to be chattel.

As for differences from Creation, both are post-apocalyptic cultures, but Tekumel fell a lot further a lot longer ago. Much of the reason it's less pleasant is that there's so much less access to powerful useful technologies (or the equivalent) and thus its effectively a whole lot poorer.

[februaryfour]

Re: women, Chinese women are now more or less on parity (even with the whole favoring men thing, it's becoming more and more equal, especially as the older generation dies out and the younger ones don't care.) India, unfortunately, still has much to learn there.

[mindstalk.livejournal.com]

Good to hear. Yay for Communism and its effects, perhaps. Doesn't change the historical bias, though. :)

[februaryfour]

Meh, sometimes the ends almost justify forgiving the means. ^_^;;;;;; Almost.

[richardthinks.livejournal.com]

addendum to my other comment on another post: there's also the dismal reason that the US was economically scared of Japan in the 80s and is currently same of China (and the Brits were scared of China before 1850) but the US has not yet become scared of India. It's something about top predators and charismatic megafauna: China has the Qans and the Triads, which impress us because they've caused us trouble. Indians have mostly been dangerous to othor people (except the Dacoits and Thugs, who therefore smeak into RPGs and other pop culture).