mindstalk: (Enki)
Following my posts on England and the Byzantines.

Copying from the first post: "I'll put in codes at the end of lines. P for Peace, in my opinion; p for challenges to the rule. I don't count foreign wars, or extra-familial foreign invasion. I for the succession passing as Intended, i for not. The latter probably implies a peace failure before or after. ? for ambiguity -- are plots caught by the secret police worth counting as a threat to the peace? If the crown passes to the rightful heir because the heir took it by force I count that as 'i', since no one intends to be killed or deposed."

Hongwu, founder. Chosen son died of illness. -I
Jianwen, grandson. Fought uncles, was overthrown by one. pi
Yongle, uncle. PI.
Hongxi, eldest son. Died very quickly. PI
Xuande, son. PI
Zhengtong, son. captured by Mongols, so brother took over, but he refused to abdicate on return, Zhengtong eventually over threw him. pI?
Jingtai, brother regent-usurper. p-?
Chenghua, son of Zhengtong. Concubine aborted or killed most of his children. P?I
Hongzhi, surviving son. "the sole perpetually monogamous emperor in Chinese history". PI
Zhengde, son. Died childless. PI
Jiajing, grandson of Chenghua. So cruel his concubines plotted to kill him. P?I
Longqing, son. short reign. PI
Wanli, son. Political fight over succession that undermined governance. PI
Taichang, son. died after a month. PI
Tianqi, son. Illiterate carpenter. Uprisings, sonless. pI
Chongzhen, brother. Rebellions, Manchu invasion. pi

I have to say this does seem a lot more stable than the other two. Given the number of sons from concubines, surprisingly little interfamilial fighting. Caveat: Chinese pages probably get less Anglophone attention than English ones, so it's possible there's a bunch of rebellions not mentioned in the short biographies, turning some P into p.

I didn't make many notes of these because it wasn't the point here, but cruelty and incompetence got mentioned a lot, as did emperors going on strike and refusing to do their work, or at least show up personally for meetings.

It's possible Chinese heavy civil service and other institutions add a lot to monarchic stability.
mindstalk: (Default)
So a while back I went through the kings of England from William the Conqueror on down, to see how well the principle of hereditary succession worked to keep things stable and predictable. Answer: not very well at all, until Parliament took over and drained the Crown of real power. As with the "emperors" of Japan, no one bothers stealing a ceremonial office. I will grant though they managed to keep it in the extended family: all the kings are descended from William, and after a couple generations they're all from Alfred the Great, too.

I'd wondered how other other places would stack up. Happily for me, for the Eastern Roman Empire someone has already done most of the work. Definitely not in the family here: a quick eyeball shows most dynasties lasting either a few years or about 80 years, almost on the dot. The Macedonian is an exception, listed at 200 years... though that's kind of an artifact of decision making. 50 years in we get Romanos I: "After becoming the emperor's father-in-law, he successively assumed higher offices until he crowned himself senior emperor." OTOH, he was overthrown and succeeded by the sons of his predecessor, so I guess he's more hiccup in the succession. We get another such hiccup with Nikephoros II and nephew.

Even within dynasties, succession is often to a brother, nephew, son-in-law(!), or adopted son(!). The first two are traditional enough, the latter less so. Succession is often not peaceful, either.

One big difference from the 'real' Roman Empire: a fair number (relatively speaking) of women in power. Empresses-regnant Pulcheria, Irene, Zoe, and Theodora; also a fair number of regencies by mothers, or in one case, a sister.
Female regents mentioned: Sophia for her insane husband, Martina for her son, Irene for her son (whom she then usurped), Theodora (different) for her son, Zoe (different) for her son, Eudokia for her son, Maria for her son.

The Komnenids seem second longest, at 104 years... ooh no, third; the final dynasty, the Palaiologans, went 192 years, and their founder had blood or marriage connections to the two prior dynasties. But this is still including civil wars, usurpations in the family, and accessions of maternal relatives.

To be fair, I've read that hereditary succession was never an official principle of either Roman empire, it was just a default, whereas having the right magical blood was important to the English.
mindstalk: (lizqueen)
I discovered some things while researching my prior post on the topic. I'm sure there's lots more.

* Richard I: not just a romantic Robin Hood-era Crusader: he barred Jews and women from his coronation. Suspected of being gay, I forget why, though he did produce a bastard son.

* The Conqueror had made Jews direct subjects of the king; no ties to a lord, but no particular rights other than being the king's property. Edward I expelled them until Cromwell's time; it's estimated there were 2000 at the time. They must have been quite rich to be worth specifically taxing, given such numbers. This matches something I read elsewhere, about early Ashkenazi in Western Europe being few but indeed quite wealthy, unlike the poor villagers of "Fiddler On the Roof."

* Richard III may or may not have killed his nephews or spirited them away or something, but he seems to have been progressive and fair to the poor and northerners. Lemme just quote Wikipedia:

"Richard's Council of the North, derived from his ducal council, greatly improved conditions for Northern England, as commoners of that region were formerly without any substantial economic activity independent of London. Its descendant position was Secretary of State for the Northern Department.

In December 1483, Richard instituted what later became known as the Court of Requests, a court to which poor people who could not afford legal representation could apply for their grievances to be heard.[61] He also introduced bail in January 1484, to protect suspected felons from imprisonment before trial and to protect their property from seizure during that time.[62] He founded the College of Arms in 1484,[63] he banned restrictions on the printing and sale of books,[64] and he ordered the translation of the written Laws and Statutes from the traditional French into English.[65]"

"Richard's reputation as a promoter of legal fairness persisted, however. William Camden in his Remains Concerning Britain (1605) states that Richard, "albeit he lived wickedly, made good laws".[226] Francis Bacon also states that he was "a good lawmaker for the ease and solace of the common people".[227] In 1525, Cardinal Wolsey upbraided the aldermen and Mayor of London for relying on a statute of Richard to avoid paying an extorted tax (benevolence) but received the reply 'although he did evil, yet in his time were many good acts made.'[228][229]"

Sounds like a better king than either of the Henries succeeding him, apart from Henry VII's ability to disarm the magnates and fill the treasury.

* Mary I started fiscal and naval policies Elizabeth got credit for, and chartered John Cabot, explorer of North America.

* I'd always thought of the Glorious Revolution as a major jink in the succession, like the Hanoverians. Nope! As mentioned last time, Mary was James II's daughter and eldest child, and William was his nephew. If you bump James and his newborn son, Mary's the heir and William with his Dutch army is a nice bonus.

* Being royal didn't mean your children survived. Sometimes it did, with some kings having their own Wikipedia pages for listing their descendants. Others... well, James II had 8 kids, and only Mary and Anne survived to adulthood. Mary had a miscarriage and never got pregnant again. Poor Anne had 17 pregnancies, 5 liveborn children, 1 surviving past 2 years, and 0 reaching adulthood. *Ouch*.

* WP again: "As was traditional in the royal family, Anne and her sister were brought up separated from their father in their own establishment at Richmond, London." Really? I knew elites outsourced nursing and tutoring and such, but separate households from birth? Dang. Helps explain all the sons rebelling against their fathers: hard to have filial loyalty to someone who didn't raise you. Mary was loyal anyway and felt guilty about her father's deposition, but she was rather pious, including agreeing that a man shouldn't be subject to his wife and thus that William should be co-monarch and rule ahead of her when not absent on wars. Anne, closer to court affairs and the religious fights, was less loyal.

** Also, Charles II ordered that his brother's children be raised Protestant, unlike James. Interesting family dynamics there.

* Mary was apparently pretty competent when she *did* have to rule due to William being out of range, and WP said Anne went to more cabinet meetings than any of her predecessors or successors. I'm not sure how to take that, given that she didn't rule all that long (twelve years) and some of those monarchs ruled for decades; is that just her immediate fellow monarchs, or all ever? Still, sounds pretty diligent, anyway, especially given that the royal power was pretty curbed by this point. But:

"Professor Edward Gregg concluded that Anne was often able to impose her will, even though, as a woman in an age of male dominance and preoccupied by her health, her reign was marked by an increase in the influence of ministers and a decrease in the influence of the Crown.[205] She attended more cabinet meetings than any of her predecessors or successors,[206] and presided over an age of artistic, literary, economic and political advancement that was made possible by the stability and prosperity of her reign.[207] In architecture, Sir John Vanbrugh constructed Blenheim Palace and Castle Howard.[208] Writers such as Daniel Defoe, Alexander Pope and Jonathan Swift flourished.[209] Henry Wise laid out new gardens at Blenheim, Kensington, Windsor and St James's.[210] The union of England and Scotland, which Anne had fervently supported,[211] created Europe's largest free trade area.[212] The political and diplomatic achievements of Anne's governments, and the absence of constitutional conflict between monarch and parliament during her reign, indicate that she chose ministers and exercised her prerogatives wisely.[213]"
mindstalk: (Enki)
Allegedly, hereditary monarchy provides a clear succession of legitimate authority. In practice, we know that's often problematic: the Roman Emperors were a mess, and Egypt had 30 dynasties in 3000 years. OTOH, some dynasties like the Ming or Plantagenet last for 300 years or so. But what chaos does that conceal? I decided to go through the monarchs of England from William the Conqueror on, and *hoo boy*. Until the rise of Parliamentary supremacy, major rebellions are more common than not, and violent interruptions to the succession are pretty common too. They *do* keep it "in the family" -- every one has been a descendant of William the Conqueror, and most have been descendants of Alfred the Great, too. But peaceful contested succession? Hah.

I'll put in codes at the end of lines. P for Peace, in my opinion; p for challenges to the rule. I don't count foreign wars, or extra-familial foreign invasion. I for the succession passing as Intended, i for not. The latter probably implies a peace failure before or after. ? for ambiguity -- are plots caught by the secret police worth counting as a threat to the peace? If the crown passes to the rightful heir because the heir took it by force I count that as 'i', since no one intends to be killed or deposed.

Refresher on the meaning of English noble titles: earls were the Anglo-Saxon royal vassals in charge of earldoms or reeves; counts are the Norman royal companion-vassal close equivalent; barons are all the nobles who are vassals to the king (all counts are also barons); dukes start out as royal relatives because the English didn't follow the Ottoman practice of pruning the family tree.


Read more... )

So, with the Glorious Revolution, we get 12 peaceful successions, and peaceful reigns apart from Jacobites. Before that the longest sequence was 5, from Henry II to Edward II, and that's counting Richard taking over from his father after bitter fighting. If we also count Edward III, despite his father being deposed, we get up to 7 successions, Henry II to Richard II. Only 3 of those 8 reigns can be counted as peaceful. If we don't count Henry-to-Lionheart or Edward III, the longest chain of intended successions is 4, in 622 years. You don't get two internally peaceful (by my estimate) reigns in a row until Elizabeth and James. That's 22 kings and almost 500 years after the Conqueror.

Depending on what baronial rebellions are like, maybe things weren't so bad for the common people. I've seen multiple sources say the Wars of the Roses may not have been so bad: cities didn't refortify, and the nobles knew they were fighting over the people so avoided sieging them, having pitched set-piece battles instead. Lots of the nobility got killed off, which might have helped later stability, as did Henry VII cracking down on private armies of the magnates.

Even if you discount some of the smaller rebellions, I think the "democratic" (more like oligarchic, even today) period of Parliamentary supremacy is clearly far more peaceful and orderly than the hereditary succession of strong monarchy.

I note that I'm not counting Irish wars and eventual independence, despite being part of the greater kingdom; I'll view it as an overseas colony, no matter what the crown claimed.

So, this is just England after William; maybe Anglo-Saxon England, or France, will be cleaner? I doubt it...

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